Curse

Siren · May 13, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

At last some sense! This is exactly what people have been asking for ... the option to buy elites of vendors the same as we can normal skills. Those that enjoy questing and PvE stuff can do so ... those that do not enjoy those things can just buy what they need off the vendors. Sounds fair to me.

What "people?" I count two. As far as I've seen, very few people (PvPers included) want the ability to just buy Elites off of vendors, at whatever price. There's a fundamental difference between walking up to Vendor X and snapping up a handful of Elite skills because you just cash-grinded for the 7.5k the five skills costed, and going to a Quest-giver (I hate that term...), paying an "entry fee" of sorts, getting a Signet, getting your target, then heading out to complete the Quest.

So far, I've seen maybe two people who want Elite skills being sold at vendors. All the rest (PvE or PvPers) don't seem to like that idea.

Okay, so there may be a similar time investment for either, but I don't consider cash-grinding to be on the same level as a meaningful (as meaningful as a game can be, of course) Quest.

What we're trying to do here is figure out a system that minimizes the grind--or at least disguises it enough so that it doesn't feel tedius. Selling Elites on vendors for gold isn't disguising a grind at all. It's pure cash-grind.

"(1 skill point, then either 100 gold + quest), or (the gold cost of the vendor)."

These are nowhere near similar ideas. The former is actual gameplay. The latter is total cash-grind.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

What "people?" I count two. As far as I've seen, very few people (PvPers included) want the ability to just buy Elites off of vendors, at whatever price. There's a fundamental difference between walking up to Vendor X and snapping up a handful of Elite skills because you just cash-grinded for the 7.5k the five skills costed, and going to a Quest-giver (I hate that term...), paying an "entry fee" of sorts, getting a Signet, getting your target, then heading out to complete the Quest.

So far, I've seen maybe two people who want Elite skills being sold at vendors. All the rest (PvE or PvPers) don't seem to like that idea.

Okay, so there may be a similar time investment for either, but I don't consider cash-grinding to be on the same level as a meaningful (as meaningful as a game can be, of course) Quest.

What we're trying to do here is figure out a system that minimizes the grind--or at least disguises it enough so that it doesn't feel tedius. Selling Elites on vendors for gold isn't disguising a grind at all. It's pure cash-grind.

"(1 skill point, then either 100 gold + quest), or (the gold cost of the vendor)."

These are nowhere near similar ideas. The former is actual gameplay. The latter is total cash-grind.

At last some sence! (sorry but I had too.

)

Cash grind is just that, grind. Replacing one type of "grind" for another is not what this thread is about.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

What "people?" I count two. As far as I've seen, very few people (PvPers included) want the ability to just buy Elites off of vendors, at whatever price. There's a fundamental difference between walking up to Vendor X and snapping up a handful of Elite skills because you just cash-grinded for the 7.5k the five skills costed, and going to a Quest-giver (I hate that term...), paying an "entry fee" of sorts, getting a Signet, getting your target, then heading out to complete the Quest.

So far, I've seen maybe two people who want Elite skills being sold at vendors. All the rest (PvE or PvPers) don't seem to like that idea.

Okay, so there may be a similar time investment for either, but I don't consider cash-grinding to be on the same level as a meaningful (as meaningful as a game can be, of course) Quest.

What we're trying to do here is figure out a system that minimizes the grind--or at least disguises it enough so that it doesn't feel tedius. Selling Elites on vendors for gold isn't disguising a grind at all. It's pure cash-grind.

"(1 skill point, then either 100 gold + quest), or (the gold cost of the vendor)."

These are nowhere near similar ideas. The former is actual gameplay. The latter is total cash-grind.

As for people being vocal - um...I don't think counting vocal people is a good idea anyway, I think we should just stick to suggestions instead of polls.

And as for Bamelin's "people" comment: If he is anything like me, then he, like I, have been to many different forums, and there is a number of people who prefered getting the skills off of vendors, since they already knew the 8-20 skills they wanted for their build. So they got the skills they wanted to unlock for earlier beta's (before UAS) and just made a custom PvP.

Edit: Sorry forgot something: In addition to the topic of cash-grinding, In an earlier post I had stated that the purposes of the suggestions I made in particular, was to make the elite skills more ACCESSIBLE, just because they are there does not mean you need all of them at that point in time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

This is not the thread to debate whether or not grind (a subjective notion) exists.

Sausletus Rex also made a very good suggestion, but I forget where I read it at...

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

The answer is simple, yet apparently profound, and it's already in the game. It's just been abused and neglected for so long we almost ignore it today. The skill point. Learning a skill costs your character a skill point which is earned through adventuring. But it's you and you alone who's deciding how to spend that skill point and, all things being equal, skillfully spending that limited resource can gain you an advantage. Unlocking *everything* requires a large amount of skill points. But to unlock a small section doesn't require that many and since you can pick and choose which skills on which to spend you can unlock the *right* skills - the ones you need to come up with a build or two to be competitive. The problem, though, is that skill points have been marginalized. You don't need to spend them at all to earn a skill from a quest reward, for one. You'll eventually be required to earn massive amounts of XP in order to earn more skill points once you've "finished" leveling. And, most damning of all, the selection and availability of skills on which to spend your points is extremely limited, especially as most skills you can spend a skill point on can be obtained through other means. Why would you ever buy the Resurrection Signet, for example, and waste a skill point on it when you could get it for free from a quest? Most skill trainers offer a handful of skills and while as you go along you'll encounter more trainers with more skills that requires yet more time and yet more effort as you chase the carrot of better skills. And to find the right boss for a skill you want to capture is likewise an arduous and random process.

And it's that limitation - either the poor selection or the random, out-of-your-hands availability - of things that's causing the trouble. It's out of your control. It's not a matter of skill to reach the area with the right trainer or the right quest or to luck out and find the right boss, it's a matter of time invested (And yes, missions and questing take some skill to get through, sure, but by and large simply plugging away at things will get you through most of the PvE content). All as you chase after improving yourself. There shouldn't *be* better skills (And we'll leave aside the argument about elite skills and just how they break this paradigm for the moment). Just more diversity. It's not power you're chasing, it's options.

So, here's why skill points are the solution. You make them matter once again. You make it so that there's no way to get around having to spend one to gain a skill. At the same time you make it so that you *can* spend one on a diverse assortment of skills at any given time. Expand skill trainer lists not by adding a few skills but by orders of magnitude. They had four skills? Let them have forty. But let us decide which ones we want from them. Quest rewards shouldn't be static. Instead, let every quest award a character not two or three skills but two or three skill points and let them select from eight or ten skills or a player could choose none at all and head to the trainer with the skills they *do* want. Any skill you can capture should be available somewhere else including elites. And "leveling" past 20 should be drastically reduced. Instead of taking tens of thousands of XP for each additional skill point it could take merely a few thousand.

Then anyone can gather ten or twenty good, solid skills in short order and then head off to PvP. If they need more skills, if they need more option they can come back and earn more skill points in whatever way possible to aquire them. Skill points would matter. Progressing to earn them would matter. And because skill points would be an accomplishment what you buy with them would be an accomplishment, too, keeping skills as a valuable resource. But what matters more is how you, the player, make use of them. It's your intelligence, your understanding, and your ability - your skill - that lets you find the best skills for you. Gathering that selection of good skills become an easy matter, a quick matter, and a non-repitious matter yet to gather every last skill would be a time intensive and rewarding but still optional undertaking. People don't need 150 skills to be competitive, after all. They just need the right 20 or 30, if that. Make it easier for people to find *a* skill and harder for them to have *every* skill and I think the complaints about grinding for skills would evaporate.

As for item grinding, I'd give out runes and upgrades as quest rewards instead of foci and swords and other items. Again, it's the randomness of it that leads to grind. If people can control things, if they can select their own rewards and work to find them, then it's not a repetitive grind with an uncertain payout, it's a task with a well-earned reward. Will it take time? Will it take effort? Sure, but at least you'll know what you're getting.

Awesome idea.

Madjik · May 13, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

It's nice to see someone else promoting a means to a solution rather then just argue, argue, argue. I like your idea goku, i hope it gets some good feed back since anet scans fansite forums for ideas

Siren · May 13, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

the elite skills more ACCESSIBLE, just because they are there does not mean you need all of them at that point in time.

And do you think that's how the playerbase would react? If you're making them more accessible immediately because players want them--PvPers essentially need them--what do you think is going to happen?

I mean, are players going to think to themselves, "Well, I don't have enough gold to buy those three Elite skills right now, so I'll just go play through the game and then come back."

Or are they going to think "Wow! Elite skills at a vendor! I need those skills ASAP! 'LFG to Farm [insert mob here]!'"

Remember that the majority of the playerbase is tragically stupid, goku.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And do you think that's how the playerbase would react? If you're making them more accessible immediately because players want them--PvPers essentially need them--what do you think is going to happen?

I mean, are players going to think to themselves, "Well, I don't have enough gold to buy those three Elite skills right now, so I'll just go play through the game and then come back."

Or are they going to think "Wow! Elite skills at a vendor! I need those skills ASAP! 'LFG to Farm [insert mob here]!'"

Remember that the majority of the playerbase is tragically stupid, goku.

Well, you get gold gradually as you play the game anyway, and as vast as the drops are, I don't really consider the cost an issue. Most people only get what they consider "good" skills as well, or enough skills to be flexible.

What floats around in my head, when I think of accessibility is: Okay, say you are PvP'ing in guild vs. guild, your team just gets wiped horribly, someone suggests a minute skill change, but you don't have that particular skill (elite that is), but you know what vendor has it, and you know what quest coughs it up. So really, it boils down to wanting/needing something in particular, then it is merely a preference issue as to how to get it - for the sake of time you choose to purchase it real quick. People who want to unlock EVERY skill, of course, are going to have time demands, that is to be expected.

Siren · May 13, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Well, you get gold gradually as you play the game anyway, and as vast as the drops are, I don't really consider the cost an issue. Most people only get what they consider "good" skills as well, or enough skills to be flexible.

What floats around in my head, when I think of accessibility is: Okay, say you are PvP'ing in guild vs. guild, your team just gets wiped horribly, someone suggests a minute skill change, but you don't have that particular skill (elite that is), but you know what vendor has it, and you know what quest coughs it up. So really, it boils down to wanting/needing something in particular, then it is merely a preference issue as to how to get it - for the sake of time you choose to purchase it real quick. People who want to unlock EVERY skill, of course, are going to have time demands, that is to be expected.

Okay, but why make it a gold cost? Why even consider putting Elites on vendors at 3k a pop in the first place? It's wholly unnecessary.

Gold is fairly easy to come by, yes, but what players (apart from powergamers/powergrinders) are going to have 5.5k by the time they hit Piken Square? If you're selling an Elite skill or two right out of the Searing, you're forcing a cash-grind. Either the player grinds mobs for a few hours in Old Ascalon, or they play further ahead, hitting the next outpost, then the next one, and seeing all of those Elite skills for sale, so the problem just compounds as they get further in the game.

A player wants to buy two Elites in Ascalon City, but they would need 5k to buy those, so they figure "I'll just head to Piken Square, Nolani Academy, or Shiverpeaks."

But when they get there, there's a whole new set of Elite skills for sale, so in addition to needing 5k for the two Elites they wanted in AC, they also need an extra 7k for whatever Elites they want in Nolani.

Do you see what I mean here? Placing Elites on vendors at a gold cost is going to be forcing a cash-grind.

Selling Elite skills in vendors is the complete antithesis of "Accessibility." If anything, it's only making those skills more inaccessible/unavailable, because of the high gold cost.

You want to talk about "Accessibility," then Quests, Bonus Mission Elite Skill Points, etc. You're not going to be required to farm mobs, cash-grind, or go through such large portions of the game just to be able to get a small handful of Elite skills from AC to Lion's Arch.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

I am very sorry if my first post was not clear.

I was talking about implementing a quest based SoC system AND elites on vendors conjointly. That means that for the vendors to carry elites, means you already passed quests that offer those same elites - in the same fashion as regular skills. If they don't want to pay (I believe I said to start at 1000 gold for the first elite purchase and scale up by either 500 or 1000 gold for the next - I think you are getting 3000 from the first version of my suggestion in another thread) they can quest it. It's all about choices and accessibility - making elites gatherable in more than one way means they are more accessible. It is not forcing a grind when more than one way exists to get to the same end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

This is not the thread to debate whether or not grind (a subjective notion) exists.

Bamelin · May 14, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Goku's right.

Under the system he is proposing PvE'ers also get the added benefit/reward of having the latest spells first ... just like how the normal skill system works. Under the normal skill system those that do the quests get the latest spells before those that don't. That to me seems like a fair reward. Those that do not wish to do the quests still get those same skills but have to wait until the next section (town) of the game. Elites should work the same way.

Siren · May 14, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

I am very sorry if my first post was not clear.

I was talking about implementing a quest based SoC system AND elites on vendors conjointly. That means that for the vendors to carry elites, means you already passed quests that offer those same elites - in the same fashion as regular skills. If they don't want to pay (I believe I said to start at 1000 gold for the first elite purchase and scale up by either 500 or 1000 gold for the next - I think you are getting 3000 from the first version of my suggestion in another thread) they can quest it. It's all about choices and accessibility - making elites gatherable in more than one way means they are more accessible. It is not forcing a grind when more than one way exists to get to the same end.

And again, why make it a gold cost? Even 1000 is questionable, due to the same reasons I stated above about Ascalon City.

"It is not forcing a grind when more than one way exists to get to the same end."

It is forcing a grind when they'd like to nab them off of vendors. Instead of rewarding the player by them playing through the game (the Bonus Mission Elite Skill Points, for example), you're straight-up, outright requiring them to amass large amounts of gold straight out of the Searing.

Ignoring debating whether a grind exists (even though selling Elites the same as regular skills, only at an exponentially increased price, is a very real grind), selling Elites at skill vendors is simply a bad idea, and not even a worthwhile alternative/solution/whatever. It's something that only two or three people out of three or four threads want; everyone else wants nothing to do with it.

This thread is designated to figure out solutions to the current SoC system...and selling Elites on vendors simply isn't a solution.

Lazarous · May 14, 2005, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Ignoring debating whether a grind exists (even though selling Elites the same as regular skills, only at an exponentially increased price, is a very real grind), selling Elites at skill vendors is simply a bad idea, and not even a worthwhile alternative/solution/whatever. It's something that only two or three people out of three or four threads want; everyone else wants nothing to do with it.

Recount your census, or state it as a % of people posting in the relevant threads. These 'debates' - i use the term loosely - are not between large numbers.

Siren · May 14, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Recount your census, or state it as a % of people posting in the relevant threads. These 'debates' - i use the term loosely - are not between large numbers.

What else would I be referring to? If a percentage is desired...about 80-85% wouldn't want an Elite skill vendor.

I don't really consider these debates at all, either. They're more exchanges of ideas...brainstorming, if you will, and still, there's a very slim minority who want Elite skills at vendors to purchase like regular skills/armor/weapons/items.

goku19123 · May 14, 2005, 06:18 AM // 06:18

I don't like the idea of speaking for other people...and I'll leave it at that.

But seriously, this isn't a debate thread, and I don't want it to turn into one.

If they don't have the gold to get the elite right then and there, they simply do a quest for it, it's that easy.

Siren · May 14, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

If they don't have the gold to get the elite right then and there, they simply do a quest for it, it's that easy.

Real fast question: if they're not going to have the gold for the Elite in the first place...why sell the Elite on a gold standard to begin with? Accessibility? There are far more useful and better ways for Accessibility than Elite Skill Vendors, like the Bonus Mission idea. There are Bonus Missions at nearly every major story area.

goku19123 · May 14, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Okay, my bottom line reasoning is a time factor (and of course more accessibility, more is never a bad thing lol): "Don't have time for the quest, nor the bonus - damn, only got 5 minutes before work! I'll just buy the thing from this dude." <insert any other time crunching situations here lol>

O, and waiting is never an option, since Guild Wars is very addicting lol.

Phaedrus · May 14, 2005, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Mobs are stupid, people are not. The success rate for victories vs people is gonna be a lot lower than that vs mobs, so you have to take that into consideration when doling out rewards.

As to pvers getting rewards for dying - all they need to do is get to the boss and use signet of capture - they don't need to survive the encounter.

Laz

Sure, but everyone's overlooking a sort of tangential reason behind the way one has to get Elite skills now.

It forces players to play through the content.

Hardcore PvP players probably don't like this. But guess what? Guild Wars is mostly content. The developers develop...mostly content. There's an enormous world out there--more than just eight arenas and dozens of fields. That's why they put in non-mission questing.

I like both PvE and PvP...but I don't see why PvP should be super-rewarding in and of itself. It's already fun. You do your time in PvE running missions to get to the Tombs. PvP players see that as the rainbow at the end of the tunnel (and as soon as they ascend they have access). PvE players either don't give it much notice and continue to play PvE or they get excited.

I guess I fundamentally disagree with these suggestions because they boil down to making things easier and more convinient. Life is already very easy for people.

They want an elite? They go to a fan site to find out who has it. They don't need to think twice about whether they want to take that extra AOE or SoC. They don't need to pay attention to every named creature. They only need to see whether or not that one name pops up. That takes how much skill? Support casters can empathize with me--it's hard to concentrate fully on our jobs while we're watching what skills an enemy is using...especially when I'm not used to targeting anything but allies. Even people who are used to targeting only enemies need to divide their attention between their status/skills and their opponent's actions.

This reminds me of those people who get to LA and ask where the Underworld is. This reminds me of those people who don't explore the desert to find their ascension missions. ArenaNet made a game to be played. They tried to put failsafes in to require you to be at least a little curious and skilled...but even those (e.g. fighting your shadow self to ascend) have been cheapened by lazy players.

PvP is already rewarding. I don't like any solution that lessens the advantages of actually playing the game. Farming is not the same as exploring. Strict PvP players look down on PvE players as though all they do is try to farm plat and rares. Some people actually explore the world. Those people are the ones who find the elite skills not yet listed on your favorite site. Those are the people who find out where trade items load, where the skill trainers were, where collectors are.

People are already using the rough equivalent of strategy guides to play this game. Lord, just play the game and enjoy it. If you don't enjoy playing the game, maybe you shouldn't play it?

[ ]

Siren · May 14, 2005, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Okay, my bottom line reasoning is a time factor (and of course more accessibility, more is never a bad thing lol): "Don't have time for the quest, nor the bonus - damn, only got 5 minutes before work! I'll just buy the thing from this dude." <insert any other time crunching situations here lol>

O, and waiting is never an option, since Guild Wars is very addicting lol.

First, unless one works at home (like Yours Truly), one shouldn't be playing games five minutes before work, anyway. That's just lousy time management. To reward them for basically playing when they're not supposed to is just as bad.

Second, if you're selling something that people can't buy until five or six hours later...that's not making anything more accessible. It's like dangling a doggy treat in front of the family dog. Just because they can see it there doesn't mean they can access it. Same idea here.

Third, since waiting is never an option you say, that means Elite Skill Vendors are going to force a cash-grind.

Lazarous · May 14, 2005, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Sure, but everyone's overlooking a sort of tangential reason behind the way one has to get Elite skills now.

It forces players to play through the content.

No, the problem isn't that it forces players to go through content - the problem is that it forces players to go through content again and again. That is the freaking definition of grind and what most of these proposed changes wish to lessen or remove.

If a.net wanted us to go through content...just wanted us to see all the quests in the world and do all the stuff you could find, then it would've had a system to unlock everything once you did just that. The current system is a time sink, nothing more.

Railing against the horrors that pvp players wish to inflict on you while you go out and 'explore' when none of the proposals in this thread limit your options to do so is a common tactic by those opposed to this, and once again makes no sense whatsoever.

Laz

goku19123 · May 14, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Phaedrus...please...this is not a debate thread, if you want a debate, please make another thread and try to flame-bait people there. This thread is for suggestions and the discussion of those suggestions.

Laz: He offered nothing to the discussion, and is clearly trying to flame-bait someone, please don't do that to this thread lol. In fact, he was so off-topic it's not even funny.

Siren: I do see your point lol. Hmm...I like Sausaletus Rex's idea so much, that I think a better idea would be (if something like that idea is implemented) to still put elite skills, and a massive number of regular skills, on each vendor. Then, just leave the regular skills to the same purchase mechanism, and make elites cost no gold but multiple skill points, as someone had mentioned earlier in the thread (by jdwoody) (and I still like idea of the Quest SoE).

Perhaps this: The quest SoE + Rex's idea...lol + vendor - since in the way I thought of the quest, the quest giver charges 100 gold + 1 skill point, Rex's idea would make it so that you have skill points flowing frequently enough. So now, if the vendor was to carry elites, make the elites something around 3 skill points.

Either way, I think my goal is an idea that has at least two ways to obtain elite skills: 1) the time-consuming, less costly way (such as quest SoE) and 2) something less time-consuming, but more costly, as if paying for time.